In the Matter of: ) ) PROPOSED RULE: DIESEL PARTICULATE ) MATTER EXPOSURE OF UNDERGROUND ) COAL MINERS ) Pages: 1 through 165 Place: Mount Vernon, Illinois Date: December 15, 1998 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF LABOR MINE SAFETY AND HEALTH ADMINISTRATION PROPOSED RULE: DIESEL ) PARTICULATE MATTER EXPOSURE OF ) UNDERGROUND COAL MINERS ) Ramada Inn Mt. Vernon, Illinois Tuesday, December 15, 1998 The hearing began, pursuant to notice, at 9:05 a.m. BEFORE: THOMAS TOMB, Moderator APPEARANCES: PAMELA KING SANDRA WESDOCK JON KOGUT ROBERT HANEY GEORGE SASEEN RONALD FORD WILLIAM MC KINNEY P R O C E E D I N G S MR. TOMB: Before we get started, I have an opening statement that I'd like to read for the record. My name is Thomas Tomb. I am the Chief, Dust Division, at MSHA's Pittsburgh Safety and Health Technology Center, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I will be the moderator at this public hearing on MSHA's proposed rule addressing diesel particulate matters in underground coal mines. Personally, and on behalf of Assistant Secretary J. Davitt McAteer, I would like to take this opportunity to express our appreciation to each of you for being here today and for your input. With me on the panel today from MSHA are Jon Kogut from the Office of Program Evaluation & Information Resources, George Saseen from the Approval Certification Center, Robert Haney from the Environmental Assessment and Contaminate Control Branch of the Dust Division, Sandra Wesdock from the Office of the Solicitor and William McKinney from the Mine Safety and Health Academy. We have Ronald Ford and Pamela King from the Office of Standards, Regulations and Variances. This hearing is being held in accordance with Section 101 of the Federal Mine Safety & Health Act of 1977. As is the practice of this agency, formal rules of evidence will not apply. We are making a verbatim transcript of this hearing. It will be made an official part of the rulemaking record. The hearing transcript, along with all of the comments that MSHA has received to date on the proposed rule will be available to you for review. If you want to get a copy of the hearing transcript, you have to get it on your own by making arrangements with the court reporter. We value your comments. MSHA will accept -- are there enough chairs? Would you see about getting some additional chairs, maybe, brought in? Just in case. Thanks. We value your comments. MSHA will accept written comment and other data from anyone, including those of you who do not present an oral statement. You may present written comments to Pamela King during the hearing or send them to Carol Jones, Acting Director of Office of Standards, Regulations & Variances at the address that has been listed in the hearing notice. We will include them in the rulemaking record. If you feel you need to modify your comments or wish to submit additional comments following the hearing, the record will stay open until February 16, 1999. You are encouraged to submit to MSHA a copy of your comments on computer disk. Your comments are essential in helping MSHA develop the most appropriate rule to foster safety and health in our nation's mines. We appreciate your views on this rulemaking and assure you that your comments, whether written or oral, will be considered by MSHA in finalizing this rule. In another rulemaking on October 29, 1998, we published the proposed rule to address diesel particulate matter exposure of underground metal and non-metal miners. The comment period for that proposed rule will close on February 26, 1999. Hearings for the metal and non-metal proposal will be announced in a future Federal Register notice. You may obtain copies of that proposal by downloading it from MSHA's web site at www.msha.gov or by calling the Office of Standards, Regulations & Variances at (703) 235-1910. However, the scope of this hearing today is limited to the April 9, 1998 proposed rule addressing diesel particulate matter, exposure of underground miners. This is the third of four public hearings to be held on this proposed rule. The first was held in Salt Lake City on November 17, 1998, the second was held in Beckley, West Virginia on November 19, 1998 and the fourth will be held in Birmingham on December 17, 1998. Information regarding these hearings is published in the Federal Register on October 19. It can also be obtained from MSHA's web site on the Internet and there are a few copies of that notice available here today if you want to pick one up. On April 9, 1998, MSHA published a proposed rule that would reduce the risk to underground coal miners of serious health hazards that are associated with exposures to high concentrations of diesel particulate material. Diesel particulate matter is a very small particle in diesel exhaust. Underground miners are exposed to far higher concentrations of this fine particulate than any other group of workers. The best available evidence indicates that such high exposures put these miners at excess risk of a variety of adverse health effects, including lung cancer. The comment period for the proposed rule is scheduled to close on August 7, 1998. However, due to requests from the mining community, the Agency extended the comment period for an additional 60 days until October 9, 1998. The proposed rule would require the following: Proposed Paragraph 72.500 would require the installation and maintenance of high efficiency particulate filters on the most polluting types of diesel equipment and underground coal mines. It would require that, beginning 18 months after the date the rule is promulgated, any piece of permissible diesel-powered equipment operated in an underground coal mine must be equipped with a system capable of removing, on average, at least 95 percent of the mass of the DPM emitted from the engine. Additionally, 30 months after the rule is promulgated, any non-permissible piece of heavy duty, and I stress heavy duty diesel powered equipment operated in underground coal mines be equipped with a system capable of removing, on average, at least 95 percent of the mass of the diesel particulate material emitted from the engine. Any exhaust after-treatment device installed to reduce the emissions of diesel particulate matter would be required to be maintained in accordance with manufacturer's specifications. The proposal also sets forth the Agency's requirements for determining whether a system is capable of removing, on average, at least 95 percent of diesel particulate matter by mass. It states that a filtration system must be tested by comparing the results of emission test of an engine with and without the filtration system in place. Proposed Paragraph 72.510 is a training requirement which lists the pertinent areas in which instructions must occur. The training is to be provided annually in all mines using diesel-powered equipment and is to provide without charge to the miner the training. It also includes provisions on record retention, access and transfer. And, finally, proposed amendment to Paragraph 75.371 would amend existing Paragraph 75.371, which is the mine ventilation plan contents to add one new requirement to an underground coal mine's ventilation control plant. The additional information is limited, but is critical to the control of diesel particulate matter. The proposal would require the ventilation plant to contain a list of the diesel-powered units used by the mine operator, together with information about each unit's emission control or filtration system. Details relative to the efficiency of this system and the methods used to establish the efficiency of this system for removing diesel particulate matter must be included. Any amendments to a mine's ventilation plan must, of course, also follow requirements of 30 CFR 75.370, which is the mine's ventilation plan submission approval requirements. MSHA received comments from various sectors of the mining community and has preliminarily reviewed the comments it has received thus far. MSHA would particularly like additional input from the mining community regarding specific alternative approaches discussed in the economic feasibility section of the preamble. As you might recall, the options discussed include establishing a concentration limit for DPM in this section, requiring filters on some light duty equipment and looking at the filter and the engine as a package that has to meet a particular emission standard, instead of requiring that all engines be equipped with a high-efficiency filter. The Agency is also interested in obtaining as many examples as possible of the specific situation in individual mines. This could include the composition of the diesel plate, what controls cannot be utilized due to special conditions and any studies of alternative controls you might have used for the computer work sheet. We also seek information about the availability and cost of various control technologies that are being developed. In other words, such things as high-efficiency ceramic filters. Also, experience with the use of available controls and information that would help us evaluate alternative approaches for underground coal mines. We would also like to hear about any unusual situations that might warrant the application of special provisions. The Agency welcomes comments on any topics on which we should provide initial guidance, as well as any alternative practices which MSHA should accept for compliance before various provisions of the rule go into effect. Additionally, the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969 requires each Federal agency to consider the environmental effects of proposed actions and to prepare an environmental impact statement on major actions significantly affecting the quality of the human environment. On July 14, 1998, MSHA published notice in the Federal Register that announced its preliminary determination that the proposed rule would have no significant environmental impact. The comment period was scheduled to close on August 10, 1998, however, MSHA extended that comment period until October 9, 1998. The record will remain open as stated in the Public Hearing Notice until February 16, 1999, to allow proposed hearing comments and data submissions. MSHA views these rulemaking activities as extremely important and knows that your participation is also a reflection of the importance you associate with the rulemaking. To insure that an adequate record is made during this proceeding, when you present your oral statements or otherwise address the panel, I ask that you come to the podium and clearly state your name, spell your name and state the name of the organization that you represent. It is my intent that during this hearing, anyone who wishes to speak will be given an opportunity. Anyone who has not previously asked for time to speak needs to tell us of their intention to do so by signing the request to speak sheet and let us know how much time you need. And, I he the sheet up here now, so when we have a break or at lunchtime, if anybody knows they want to make a presentation, see me and you can put your name of the sheet. I will attempt to recognize all speakers in the order in which they have requested to speak. As the moderator, if necessary, I reserve the right to modify the order of presentation in the interest of fairness. I doubt that will be necessary, but I also may exercise discretion to exclude irrelevant or unduly repetitious material. And, in order to clarify certain points, the panel may ask questions of the speakers. Before we get started, we'll get some more chairs brought in, in case people show up. (Pause.) MR. TOMB: Let me remind you, if anybody is leaving the room, you better be careful getting out of there. Okay, to get started, the first person I have signed up to make a presentation is Joe Urban, is that correct, sir? MR. URBAN: Yes. First of all, my name is Joe Urban, U-R-B-A-N. I'm with the United Mine Workers. Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the opportunity to come and address this distinguished committee on an issue that I feel that United Mine Workers should give testimony today to influence you to the fact that they are dead serious about what they're talking about today. I appreciate the opportunity to come here, on behalf of the mine workers in the Midwest Region. The Midwest Region comprises some 12 states here in the Midwestern United States. Mainly we have miners here today from the states of Kentucky, Indiana and Illinois. I thank you for their opportunity to articulate to you some of the first hand problems of which most of them have been facing, especially here in the state of Illinois, since 1989. On October 19, 1998, the Department of Labor published in the Federal Register, Volume 63, Number 201, Proposed Rules, 30 CFR Parts 72 and 75, Diesel Particulate Matter Exposure of Underground Coal Miners. MSHA published a proposed rule to reduce the risk to underground coal miners of serious health hazards that are associated with exposure to high concentrations of diesel particulate matter or DPM. DPM is a very small, small particles in diesel exhaust. Underground miners are exposed to far higher concentrations of this fine particulate than any other group of workers. The best available evidence indicates that such high exposures put these miners at excess risk of a variety of adverse health effects, including lung cancer. The proposed rule for underground coal mines would require that mine operators install and maintain high- efficiency filtration systems on certain types of diesel- powered equipment. Underground coal mine operators would also be required to train miners about the hazards of DPM exposure. According to my understanding of the proposed rule, it would require all permissible or inby and heavy- duty non-permissible, outby, diesel-powered equipment to be equipped with a filtration system capable of removing, on average, at least 95 percent diesel particulate matter by mass. Now, according to my information, there is approximately 3,000 pieces of diesel-powered equipment in the underground coal mines in the United States. Of that total of 3,000, the rule would only impact approximately 1,000 pieces of diesel-powered equipment. That being 500 pieces of permissible equipment used inby and 500 pieces of non-permissible, heavy-duty equipment used outby. This only represents 33 1/3 percent of the total diesel-powered equipment used in the underground coal mines. In MSHA's introductory paragraph, for the reason of going to the rulemaking process, MSHA suggests that there are necessary and sufficient reasons to control miner's exposure to DPM. It refers to the "best available evidence," a key provision in Section 101(a)(6)(A) of the Mine Act. This portion of the Mine Act does not say the best possible evidence. It refers to the best available evidence, an implicit recognition that there are limits on all scientific information. It goes on to refer to "...lifetime of DPM exposures at concentrations we presently find in underground mines face a significant risk of material impairment of their health." The objective of MSHA's standards-setting authority is to ensure that miners can work for the "...period of their entire working life..." without material impairment of their health or functional capacity. This objection is addressed in the opening paragraph. According to recent reports on the health effects from diesel exhaust, in March, 1998, the National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health Report's heading stated, Predicted lung cancer risk among miners exposed to diesel exhaust particles, and I've included that in your packet as Exhibit 5. After analyzing several studies on the health effects of diesel exhaust, the NIOSH report found the risk of miners developing and dying from lung cancer from exposure to diesel particulate matter, DPM, extremely high. The study cites that upwards of nearly 900 in 1,000 miners exposed to small doses, 1 mg. per cubic meter of DPM over a working lifetime, has a risk of lung cancer. The NIOSH study noted the U.S. Supreme Court, in a decision on health standard case, cited that one death in 1,000 as being a significant level of risk. The NIOSH study estimated that reducing the miner's risk to one in 1,000, using the highest risk levels, would have an associated DPM exposure level of about .001 mg. per cubic meter. Here in Illinois, diesel-powered equipment used in underground coal mines have been present from approximately 1989 till present. We are still here today on the eve of the first decade of using diesel-powered equipment underground and we still have not seen sufficient light of day to realize the vitally needed protection the miners need. I recall when the first piece of diesel-powered equipment went underground in a UMWA-represented coal mine. I made the statement then and it appears as though that statement will hold true, "That diesel-powered equipment used underground in coal mines, unregulated, would ultimately end up being the coal miners' 'asbestos' of the year 2000." On April 22 and 23, 1998, there was a news article from the California Scientific Review Panel. Their report on diesel exhaust stated, the scientific panel found after nine years of review that diesel exhaust is a serious cancer danger, with estimates of thousands dying from the disease. A high rate of lung cancer was cited. The scientific panel chairman said diesel exhaust contains to the most toxic set of constituents that you could ever find. The article notes that diesel exhaust contains more than 40 compounds that have been declared carcinogenic. The report cites other health effects from diesel exhaust. Well, imagine that. And another news article dated April 10, 1998, an Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) draft report released April 9, 1998, stating that diesel exhaust, even at low levels, are likely to cause a risk of cancer and other respiratory diseases. Now, normally, I try to be a reasonable professional individual, but it would appear to me that if the United States of America can create a "Clean Air Act" and an "Environmental Protection Agency" for everybody working above ground, then I believe that it is time to create those entities for underground coal mines. That way, at least coal miners would have a fighting chance of surviving. Now, the operators are going to tell you they will not have any problems keeping exposure to a minimum, because they will have all the air that they want to utilize in order to keep the exhaust diluted. You will hear today testimony from the miners themselves, concerning how well the operators keep ventilation intact. You will also hear how there are numerous places within a coal mine where it is impossible, if not impracticable, to try and maintain ventilation everywhere there is a piece of non-permissible equipment. In order to have air continuously going over a piece of diesel-powered, non-permissible heavy-duty equipment is totally absurd. There is no way imaginable that that can be accomplished. How would you control, direct, regulate any of the ventilation? If MSHA truly believes that the operators indeed can achieve this, then I want to be the one that sells you one of those cars that perhaps maybe even some of you may already own, that has the capabilities of the driver and passenger having a means of controlling their own temperature environment from where they sit. Give me a break, they're only five feet apart. And, if you believe that, then I'll throw in some seaside property in Arizona. In order to keep the record straight, I wish to submit to the committee as an exhibit a copy of citations of which I had requested from MSHA, and this will be Exhibit 2. The citations are for the MSHA fiscal years of 1996, 1997 and the first quarter of 1998. The citations cover nine underground coal mines in the state of Illinois. There were 443 citations issued concerning ventilation quantity and/or quality. Of the 443 citations issued for the approximately two-year period, 414 of the those citations were violations of 30 CFR 75.370(a)(1), which requires the operators to have and follow and approved ventilation for their specific mine. We're talking about out of a total of 443 citations, 93 percent of the citations issued in those two categories alone were for violations of the ventilation plan. In the exhibit, you will find a breakdown of each of the categories the citations fall under. Also, you will find a breakdown by mine MSHA ID number of each of the citations issued at each of the nine mines. The miners of whom will speak today will be sharing these citations with you as they speak. It is important that MSHA review all the citations to "know" how well the operators maintain their ventilation in their coal mines. It is very difficult for me to understand why MSHA would go to all the trouble it has in order to promulgate regulations and not at least make an attempt to reduce exposure for all miners. It is strange, though, how just a year ago, here in District 8 of MSHA, MSHA was doing all it could to help the operators come into compliance with the diesel-powered permissible equipment base requirements. It even went to the extent to offer operators the option of removing the diesel-powered permissible equipment, inby, away from the face by removing those items of which made it permissible. Therefore, it did not have to meet the criteria of being permissible anymore, because the operators removed whatever it was that was required and made it a piece of diesel-powered non-permissible equipment, heavy duty equipment, so as to keep the operators from being required to add additional ventilation to the last open cross cut of the working sector. Now, the Agency is only addressing one third of the total problem. On what does MSHA base its reasoning that by providing additional protection to only one third of the equipment, that that will provide any additional protection to miners? Does MSHA need to be reminded that in an underground coal mine, the people are working in an enclosed atmosphere, to a great extent? Where does MSHA think most of the diesel-powered equipment is used at? It certainly is not at the working face. Please do not misunderstand me. I appreciate the fact that MSHA is making an attempt to fix the problem. But, in this case, you cannot fix only a portion of the problem. Ask anyone who has been in a coma where there were not any diesel-powered equipment in the mine and has gone to a coal mine where the diesel is used, and they will tell you that they can smell it as soon as they get on the immediate bottom area of the mine. Why? If you have diesel-powered equipment that does not have filtration systems that we're talking about, especially with the proposed rule, we're going to have the continuous presence of exhaust residue and particulate matter lingering and floating around in the atmosphere, and especially in those areas that we call dead air space. I can't believe that we're here, almost ten years after we began using diesel-powered equipment in underground coal mines, and still we have to argue over what the necessary remedies should be. And, even after studying the scientific studies for nine years. I testified before a committee in Chicago, Illinois whenever the first diesel regulations were being formulated. At that hearing, I told the committee of which Mrs. Pat Silvey was the chairperson, that it appeared that MSHA was more interested in trying to be a buffer between the operators and the mine workers. That same theology appears prevalent today, as well. We must have the necessary protection uniformly applied throughout the entire coal mine. It does little good to only fix a small portion of the problem. A Band-Aid will not take care of the larger problem. If MSHA does not hear the cries of the coal miners this time concerning all the problems associated with the use of diesel-powered equipment used in the underground coal mines, then the miners themselves will have to go out and purchase something that will help them, such as this right here, gentlemen. Another subject for us to discuss is the issue of economics. I know that you have a responsibility to insure that you do not create burdensome requirements on the operators. But, if this committee allows operators to use the economic crutch that they are so fond of, then shame on you. Because I know there are several miners of whom are here today, even in this crowd, that will testify to you that even though they are close to being out of a job, that if they were given a choice to have the protection they need from the diesel exhaust, or to lose their job, I am confident that they will tell you that at least if they lose their job due to the economic hardship created by having to comply with the requirement of providing the necessary filtration systems for all mines, that at least they would still be alive and hopefully have their health and be capable of looking for another job somewhere else. The union wishes to share with the committee a report conducted by NIOSH on Predicted Lung Cancer Risk Among Miners Exposed to Diesel Exhaust Particles. Once the committee reads the report, I'm sure that the final conclusion of which should be unanimous, is one that the committee will totally agree that the proposed rule making being conducted here today definitely does not even provide a minimal decrease in the risk potential of deadly diesel particulate matter to the miners. I strongly believe that the Department of Labor, of which is a Federal Government Agency, and MSHA, being a branch of that Agency, has the responsibility of being the point guard in providing essential protection to the working men and women of this great country. The Federal Government should be setting the highest standard of providing protection in order to guide individual states in adopting similar protection. But, instead we find that the Federal Government is more concerned with creating only minimal standards for our nation. Fortunately, we do have some states in our great nation that will not settle with providing only minimal protection. One such state is the great state of Pennsylvania. They have at least had the foresight to know that providing minimal protection does nothing at all other than to pacify business interest groups. I wish to refer you to the Bituminous Coal Mining Laws of Pennsylvania for Underground Mines, which is Exhibit 6 in your packet. Article II-A, Diesel Powered Equipment, Section 201-A, Underground Use (a), which states: "Underground use of inby and outby diesel-powered equipment, including mobile equipment, stationary equipment and equipment of all horsepower ratings may only be approved, operated and maintained as provided in this article, except for emergency fire fighting equipment to be used specifically for that purpose." And, under Section 203-A, Exhaust Emissions Control, (b) states: "The exhaust emissions control and conditioning system shall include the following: 1) a diesel particulate matter filter capable of an average of 95 percent or greater reduction of DPM emissions." MSHA, with this proposed rule making, has an opportunity, at the least, to follow the guidance of the state of Pennsylvania in promulgating rules that will be in conformity with the state of Pennsylvania and create a uniformity for all the other states. And, if you still wish to debate the economics of the issue, if Pennsylvania can provide this type of protection and stay in business, then so can the rest of the United States. MSHA has a redemptionary opportunity here. Do not ignore it nor let it slip away. MSHA needs to take full advantage of this opportunity. I wish to submit to the committee several manufacturers of whom have a wide range of DPM filters and filtration systems available on the market today. That's in your packet as Exhibit 7. I feel that if MSHA would take a close look at what these manufacturers have to offer the mining community, MSHA will determine that the relatively low cost of these products far outweighs the sky-rocketing costs associated in providing medical treatment after someone has been debilitated due to the excessive exposure to DPM. I sincerely appreciate your undivided attention during my presentation. Before I close and turn it over to the other miners, I have a personal story that I want to relate to the committee and this is a true story. There was this little boy that used to get up early in the morning and this little boy couldn't tell time yet. And, he would go to the couch and he would climb up on the back of the couch and he would look out the picture window and he would wait. And, eh would wait for dad to come home. His dad worked third shift at the mines. Although he couldn't tell time, he could tell by the position of the hands on the face about what time dad was supposed to be home, and sure enough, as soon as that car would pull up, the little boy would jump down off the couch, open the door and run out on the porch, run down that sidewalk and he would grab daddy's hand and he would grab that bucket, cause he knew there was something in that bucket for him. Now, it didn't matter if it was an apple or an orange, half a sandwich, half a cake. Whatever was in that bucket was the greatest thing that he had ever had. One day, that little boy was waiting there for dad to come home. Mom was in the kitchen and the phone rang, and the little boy didn't think too much about it, because sometimes dad worked over. And, just was thinking that maybe today dad was working over. So, he waited a few minutes longer, and he heard a noise come from the kitchen. And, he turned to look and mom was sitting in the chair crying. And, he went to mom and he said, mom, don't worry. Dad will be home. He's just working over. And, she had to pick her little boy up, put him on her lap and say, son, Daddy's not coming home today. Daddy's been killed in the mine. Now, I tell you committee this story for two reasons. One, that story is true, cause the dad that was killed was mine and I was that little boy. And, the second thing, you have the responsibility, you have the position that you have today because of people's lives. I pray that you do the right thing. Thank you. MR. TOMB: Thank you, Mr. Urban. Are there any questions? (Pause.) MR. TOMB: Okay, thank you very much. The next speaker will be Mr. Hicks. MR. HICKS: Good morning. My name is Bob Hicks, H-I-C-K-S. I'm a safety committeeman with the United Mine Workers Local 2412 at the Peabody Coal Company, Marissa Mine, here in the state of Illinois. I guess the first thing I need to do is thank you, Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee, for allowing us to gather today to be able to tell you some of the things that are near and dear to our hearts and a real problem we feel like that we need to do all we can do to try and get rectified. I've got to tell you, I'm not very comfortable doing this. MR. TOMB: That makes too of us. MR. HICKS: I'm scared shiftless, you know, but as uncomfortable as it is, I know that it's very important and I understand that it's something that needs to be done, so I'll try to suck it up. I can guarantee you I'll be real quick here. I guess first of all, the one thing like I said before, I am a safety committeeman, and I'd like to think that I'm an expert in some of the health and safety facets of my job as a committeeman and with the contract and with different things. But, I've got to tell you that when it comes to diesel and diesel regulations and diesel particulates and things of that matter, I feel real inadequate. Actually, I've got some stuff back there about this thick that's just totally overwhelming to me. There's so much information that's available, and at the same time, with the feeling of being overwhelmed by information, I also feel real confused because of a lack of -- I won't say a lack of action, but maybe a postponing of some action on some part by something as strong and as demanding as the Federal Government. Along with the idea of being overwhelmed and confused, I also know that I don't have a lot of expertise in this, but I do have, I think, and I think the people that know me will tell you that I have a lot of common sense and knowing some of the things that I do know, it's real hard for me to try and apply my common sense to the problems that we're facing. It would just on the fact that the timeline has been so long and nothing seems to be set in concrete and so many people are at risk because of the situation that we're in. Okay, let me start a little bit with our mine. I've got a list here of the, a total list of the diesel equipment that we use at our mine, and according to this list, we have 55 pieces of diesel equipment in our mine on the underground, that we use in the underground. We have nine pieces that we use on the surface. Of those 55 pieces we use underground, we have 15 different uses for them in all kinds of different areas. According to my figures, anyhow, only three of those are what can be termed as permissible equipment. The rest of it is to be used strictly outby, and it ranges from everything from a diesel scoop to forklifts to pick up trucks, mantrips. We've even got a little diesel-powered shovel that we clean the belt line with. Kind of a cute thing, but different things that we do. Okay, and in those different pieces of equipment, we have seven different manufacturers, of which they use four different engine makers in sum totalling the different types of machines. You know, that's a lot of things to try to keep up with. I would think that would require, again, my common sense kicks in and says, we've got all these different machines with different uses and they've all got special requirements and they using different places, different things. So, I'm sure we've got a lot of training for the guys that keep this in working condition, or the best working condition they can. And, I don't feel like that's the case, either. We've got some diesel training for people that do that type of stuff, but any one of them will tell you that they don't feel like it's very adequate, either. We also have -- I've got a stack here and this is from 1996, '97 and '98. They have citations issued at our mine, a total of 67 citations that were in violation of the ventilation plan. Of those 67, 19 of them are for calendar year 1998, as of the first of this month. So, I don't know what's been happening since then, but that's a substantial amount, that's 19 of 67 in this year alone. So, that again, that tells me, my common sense kicks in and says, you know, if we're depending so heavily under the new proposed regulations that the mine atmosphere will ventilate in a proper way to use that as a control for the contaminants and the particulates in the diesel exhaust, and we're having that much trouble just keeping air at the face, which everybody knows in a coal mine, that's your main concern, then we might have a problem doing that on an outby situation. With some of the different things, like I said before that we have, the 15 different uses of our equipment, one of them is something we call a nurse truck or it's actually it's a diesel tank truck. What is it? It's a delivery truck for hydraulic oil and gear oil that we use for lubrication purposes and hydraulic purposes in the actual production units at our mine. And, the truck itself is used in a, always in a situation, it being non-permissible, of course, it's out by the face, but it's always used in the outby areas of the production units or in the outby areas of the mine, and that being basically either dead air or minimal amount of movement in the air. And, we've always had problems with the truck and people being, complaining about the fact that they didn't think the truck was right. That any time they used it in outby, the areas of a production unit, that there was always a visible haze in the air, a pretty bad smell in that area. People were getting headaches, they were feeling dizzy, and the complaints, we finally did some checks and eventually -- well, it kind of took a little bit of time, but it got to the point where it was out of compliance. They worked on the truck, got it back into compliance and I guess the truck to this day is probably still legal, but we still have the same concerns about the haze, about the smell. People in the area still get headaches and still feel dizzy, nauseated, things like that, and we're to the point now where we're seeing a lot of problems with people developing respiratory problems. Not necessarily asthma, not necessarily bronchitis, but at least asthma-like symptoms, bronchitis-like symptoms, and things even as serious as nosebleeds and such. And, the problem that we're having is that not only are they developing, but they're getting to the point where they're almost becoming chronic problems. And, we have not had diesel equipment at our mine that long. One of the real things, I guess, that's puzzling to me is that I can remember back in -- maybe someone might know -- I don't actually know the date, but I know it was at least mid or late '70s that we were doing studies on diesels and talking about, you know, the health hazards involved and things like that in a mine environment. And, after this lengthy study, you know, 20 years almost, of trying to determine the health risk that miners were put into every day, I believe Joe said that we have been using it in the state of Illinois since 1989, but with basically no regulations in place at all, or very little. We had the opportunity at our mine to kind of be a pioneer and I was involved in it, so I can personally relay it to you, but we were the first mine in the country to apply for and receive approval for the 1227 2,400 volt Joy miners to be used at the face, the high voltage miners to be used at the face. And, it was a lengthy process. I think we moved through the process pretty quickly, with maybe six or seven months that it took for the actual approval, but the thing that kept sticking in my mind and again, I don't know a whole lot about technical stuff, but my common sense kept telling me, you know, and I realize this is probably a little bit different but not really that much different, the fact that we couldn't -- why can't we just take and buy a 2,400 volt miner from Joy Manufacturing and bring it to the mines, bring it on the face and start loading coal with it and then figure out what the problems are, and then maybe we can write some regulations and guidelines for a few, some things like that and that would be fine. But, we couldn't do that because we had to get prior approval. But, basically, that's what we've done with our diesel equipment, at least in my opinion, is that somebody decided, you know, that this was a good thing for us to use and I'm not knocking diesels. Probably it's their life savers in present situations. But, we decided, someone decided that we're going to use them. We decided to use them, we're bringing them in, we've been using them for years, and to this date, we still don't have any significant regulations or guidelines so far as the diesel particulates. And, the problem that we've got is that people that have been using the equipment or even just been working in the environment, the captive environment of the underground coal mines, have been exposed to it every shift of every day that they've worked. And, again, I apologize for -- I wish I could quote you CFR Part such and such, paragraph, but I can't do that. But, I know for a fact that with the evidence that can be produced, that has been done with different states and stuff, that there are definite health risks. We've been using the machinery for a long time. We haven't basically done, we've done nothing to this point, and we don't want to see anybody drop the ball because we're closer now than we ever have been, but at the same time, you know, it's not a done deal yet, so we've got problems that we still need to face. So, I guess what I'm trying to say in summing everything up is that if you can paraphrase the advertisement for the Army on TV, you know, not necessarily be all you can be, but at least in this case, we're begging you, do all you can do. That's all we ask. Thank you. MR. TOMB: Thank you, Mr. Hicks. Does anybody have any questions? Jon? MR. KOGUT: First, are all the sections of your mine continuous sections? MR. HICKS: Yes, yes. MR. KOGUT: You said that diesel equipment, in some cases, could be a life saver. Could you explain what you meant by that? MR. HICKS: Well, I don't necessarily mean life so far as actual work, but getting a job done. For example, instead of, in a new development area, where a production unit is going to go in, you develop like a stud panel where that machinery is going to be going. And, instead of coming in and having to bring a miner across the mine and grade off for ventilation purposes, overcast and things like that, lots of times, they can come in with a big permissible diesel scoop and work in that area, and that's a heavy-duty enough, powerful enough machine that it can do the work and save a lot of man hours and a lot of effort by using that machine rather than something else that's less affordable. MR. TOMB: Sandra? MS. WESDOCK: Mr. Hicks, do know approximately your mine has been using diesel equipment? MR. HICKS: About five years. AUDIENCE VOICE: Since '91. MS. WESDOCK: Since 1991. MR. HICKS: Since 1991, so about five years. MS. WESDOCK: Thank you. MR. HICKS: That doesn't add up, though. I guess it must be about seven years. MR. SASEEN: Mr. Hicks, the three permissible units you said you have, what sort of work do they do? What type of machine are they? MR. HICKS: They're Wagner diesel scoops. MR. SASEEN: They're scoops? MR. HICKS: And, the reason they -- I believe the reason, the theory for having them there is for like if you've got falls in the intakes and things. It's permissible to take them up into that area, or in, like I was speaking about, like the development of the new areas, you can actually go, you know, to the space, through the isolation curtain, into the actual intake air with them and use them in that fashion. MR. SASEEN: So, they're not continuously used? MR. HICKS: No. MR. SASEEN: On a workday? MR. HICKS: No, not in that situation. But, they are outby, using them in the same thing, to clean up falls, to clean up roadways, to haul material, to just about everything. They're a very versatile, very useful piece of machine. MR. SASEEN: Your inventory, could you provide us with that, a copy of that? I mean, I'd like you to submit it? MR. HICKS: Yes, I can do that. This is the only one I've got. I got it from, borrowed it from somebody, so it's not, you know, it's not a secret list here. MR. SASEEN: Okay, thank you, sir. MR. MC KINNEY: Do you know if any -- you mentioned earlier, guys coming down what appeared like a pneumonia type of an illness or something. Are they reporting these at the mines on the 7001 for occupational illnesses? Are miners losing work from these types of conditions or is it just something that they're coming down with and then not missing any work days? MR. HICKS: I really don't know, to be honest with you. So far as my personal knowledge, I don't know of anyone that's done that. I really didn't know that that was -- the problem, I think, if you decide to do something like that, then there's kind of a burden of proof and, you know, sometimes that's a problem. MR. TOMB: Ron, did you have a question? MR. FORD: Just one question. It seems like, Mr. Hicks, you're saying that most of the problems with diesels in your particular mine, your situation, is from outbys? MR. HICKS: Yeah, basically, because we don't have anything that we use on a regular basis, inby, that's correct. You know, and the problem is, with the outby areas, if you're out on the main line, quality roads, we've got all kinds of air up there. That's the way things are designed. But, when you get into areas that are off the beaten path, so to speak, or back into developmental areas and things, they're not ventilated nearly as well. MR. FORD: So, the problem in the outby is that the reason is just because you don't have enough air? But, if you were getting enough air, would things be okay? MR. HICKS: I doubt it. I don't know that you can -- when I say that we've got all kinds of air on the main haulage roads, I guess what I'm saying is that so far as being able to dilute and move the exhaust away, yeah, I'd say that in itself probably works, but so far as actually being safe, I don't have any idea. But, at least it's better than the dead air areas, where there is no, you know, or little movement, and everything just kind of hangs in like a ball. MR. FORD: Sure. MR. TOMB: I have a couple of questions. You mentioned something in your presentation about the training being inadequate. Are you talking bout the mechanics that service the equipment? MR. HICKS: Yeah. MR. TOMB: These mechanics that you're specifically talking about, they don't feel their training is really good for servicing the equipment? MR. HICKS: Right. MR. TOMB: And, I know Mr. Saseen has asked you for your list of equipment. It looks like you really have a good list. I don't know whether you can do this for us, but I think it would really be helpful if you could take each one of those pieces of equipment and tell us what it's used for, whether you feel that it would come under the listing of heavy duty equipment or not heavy duty equipment, and give us sort of a time that the equipment is actually in use. For instance, I was just in a mine the other day. They had a diesel personnel carrier took us in and out of the mine. The thing sat the rest of the day. Okay, that's the type of data we're looking for. So, if you could sort of approximate the time the equipment is used and whether you would think it would come under or not under the heavy duty classification. I hope you could do that, you know, if you can. MR. HICKS: I don't see a big problem. If I'm not familiar, I'll just, you know, get information from others that are. MR. TOMB: It really would help us to have the information, if you could give it to us. MR. HICKS: You bet. Be glad to. MR. HANEY: On your sections, typically how many entries are they developed with? MR. HICKS: I think like if you're in rooms or non-mainlines, I think it's seven is the normal. MR. HANEY: How many of those would be intakes and how many of those entries -- MR. HICKS: Usually one intake, one return. MR. HANEY: So, you'd have five neutral entries? MR. HICKS: Five neutral entries, yeah. MR. HANEY: Is that belt air used to ventilate the face of your mine? MR. HICKS: No. MR. TOMB: Okay, thank you very much. Very good presentation. The next speaker will be Mr. Goodwin. MR. GOODWIN: Good morning, Tom. My name is James Goodwin and I'm a miner's rep from Western Kentucky. MR. TOMB: Would you spell that, sir? MR. GOODWIN: G-O-O-D-W-I-N. MR. TOMB: Thank you. MR. GOODWIN: I'm a miner's rep at Ohio 11 Mine. Ohio 11 Mine is owned by Island Creek Coal Company, Consol, Inc. It's an underground coal mine. And, I'm deeply concerned for the miner's health. I feel that we need laws that would require all diesel-powered equipment used in coal mines to be filtered to provide miners with adequate protection from exposure to diesel particulate matter. I have with me here approximately 200 citations which were issued for Ohio 11 Mine in the last 22 months, and all of these are on ventilation. With this amount of citations, there's no way to expect that ventilation would remove enough of the diesel particulate matters in the mine air. On one occasion recently, myself and two other miners were installing a high voltage cable using a low track. The exhaust was so strong that all of us got a real bad headache, even though we were only exposed for like 15 to 20 minutes. But, it stayed with us for the rest of the shift. Then, once we got outside and got into some good air, then, of course, we got to feeling better. But, I feel that, you know, we need protection from diesel particulate matter. I thank you. MR. TOMB: Thank you. Any questions? Mr. Goodwin, how many pieces of diesel equipment do you have in your mine? MR. GOODWIN: I believe we have something like 30, close to 30. MR. TOMB: That's all used outby? MR. GOODWIN: Yeah. We have two Wagner diesel scoops that are permissible, but there again, they're used only for supplying. We don't have tracks. We use the diesels to pull the flat cars in and out. A lot of our equipment is the small rib-runners, as we call them, where the mechanics use to travel to and from, and then we have, I think, eight personnel carriers that haul about 11 men. And, like he said a few moments ago, they were only used to haul the men in and sat for the day and then bring the men out. MR. TOMB: Could you provide us with a list of the type of equipment you have in the mine and also what, in your opinion, you know, from its use, whether it be considered heavy-duty equipment or not and the time it would operate? Is that too much of a problem? MR. GOODWIN: Not at all. MR. TOMB: Okay, if you could send that to us, it sure would help. MR. GOODWIN: And, also, I'd like to give you these citations, too. MR. TOMB: All right, thank you. MR. GOODWIN: To review. MR. TOMB: Thank you very much. Thank you. If you can't have it today, you could mail it to us. Thank you. Our next speaker will be Mr. Mann. MR. MANN: Good morning. My name is James Mann. I'm a safety committeeman from Local Union 1071 in the same mine, Ohio No. 11, Nortonville, Kentucky. I work in the same mine that Mr. Goodwin works, and as he stated, in less than two years, we've received approximately 200 citations on our ventilation. If we can't maintain our ventilation for our units or our belts, how can we ever maintain our ventilation to render these gases harmless from the exhaust, gases from our pieces of equipment? I'm an electrician. I work with the mechanics at the mine that perform the maintenance and does the servicing on the diesel equipment. We have no one certain person whose job it is to service the diesel equipment. Thus, it gets done when we can work it in, when there's nothing else that is pressing. Servicing and regularly scheduled maintenance is pretty well on the priority list at our mine. As Jim said, we have approximately 30 pieces of underground equipment. He stated we have two permissible diesel scoops. We have only one that is permissible, but it's used outby. Most of our present testing that's done is done with the engine idling. Of course, we check for seals, you know, too. But, the largest or the biggest majority of your exhaust things come when the equipment is accelerating. That, to me, needs to be tested or some way of testing that. Possibly with the DPM filtration system, it would render that problem or just take it away, you know, if we could remove the DPM's. And, I strongly urge you to require a DPM filtration system on all the equipment, not just the face equipment, the inby, the permissible or the heavy duty. But, we have some equipment down there that probably has 20, 25 horsepower that's considered heavy duty. It's a small, low track. We have some that's much larger than that, that is all light duty. I don't know where the justice is in the rating of the heavy duty and light duty, but I thank you for your time. If you have any questions? MR. TOMB: Thank you. Any questions? Okay, thank you very much. Our next speaker will be a Mr. Dunn. MR. DUNN: Good morning, Mr. Chairman. My name is Jim Dunn. That's D-U-N-N. I work for Peabody Coal Company, Camp No. 1. I'm chairman of the Safety Committee, Local 1798. At Camp 1, we have 53 pieces of underground diesel equipment. Six are heavy duty and the rest are considered light duty equipment. Peabody started using diesel equipment around 1988 and some of that diesel equipment is still in use today and requires a lot of maintenance. The local union worked with Peabody and Camp 1 management to develop a maintenance program for our mantrips. These are eight diesel buckets and we -- when we go back and check these maintenance records, we still find that these mantrips are not being maintained properly and operating conditions, because of lack of maintenance and the training of people that are working on this equipment. It's a big problem, this equipment. It's old and it takes a lot of maintenance, and we don't have anybody at our mine trained to maintain this equipment properly. And, for the remaining equipment, there's no maintenance program whatsoever. Our regular maintenance program for like changing oil, requiring filter change, which is -- we're still working on that. We can't give that today. Some of the problems that we found with our diesel equipment are high emissions. We found exhaust systems have been altered, so accurate readings can't be taken. This is done by drilling holes in exhaust pipes. We don't get an exact reading of the flow of the exhaust. We found defusures, a place on the end of the exhaust pipes where your emissions are, instead of getting a direct flow, they go every which way. You can't get an accurate reading on those. We found that we've got one piece of equipment where the exhaust is run through the bumper and the drilled holes all across the bumper. One side would have larger holes and the other side would be real small. When the man took his readings, you know, you weren't getting an accurate reading of what was going on. At one time, we had welders on diesel equipment, and this equipment would be taken into areas of the mine where the ventilation would be less, like you were talking about on your main lines, and on your tracking, you have a lot of ventilation. But, in areas where you have to do work on headers, there's not that much air. And, these welders had to be, the engines had to be revved at real high RPM's. You're getting a lot of emissions out of those motors. They're in low ventilated areas and they're exposed. We have a lot of people that have had headaches with those, make them sick. It's just, you know, with ventilation, you can't control it everywhere. I mean, you're going to get into areas of the mine where the ventilation is just not as great and it's not something that you turn a switch on and turn a lot of air in there. At one time, we had a diesel generator and this was used to move equipment down our tracks, our main lines. And, this was an area where there was a lot of air. This generator put out so much emission that one man was made so sick that he had missed a day's work, gone to the doctor and missed a day's work, and the company paid him for that day. So, they knew that this made him sick. All the equipment that I'm referring to is light duty equipment. We have no, we have six pieces of heavy equipment in our mine, heavy duty, that's classified as heavy duty equipment. The rest is light duty. Two-thirds of the 53 pieces are run 90 percent of the time at the mine outby. So, all this equipment -- MR. TOMB: During the shift, timewise, 90 percent of those total -- MR. DUNN: We have diesel mantrips that bring the people back and forth from the face, but there are six units and there's six pieces of equipment. The rest of it is run. I don't understand the reasoning for light duty and heavy duty equipment. If one of the reasons is ventilation for controlling these emissions. Ventilation is a variable and can change and in the past two years, we've had 64 violations on our ventilation plan. I'd like to give these to you. MR. TOMB: Thank you. MR. DUNN: I believe that this shows that at times, we had problems with ventilation. You know, it's not a continuous problem, but at times, it does occur. If the light duty equipment was required a particulate, designed to reduce particulate emission to an average of 95 percent, I think it would better protect the miners and the risk of exposure and the possible lung cancer causing particulates. In closing, I'd like to commend MSHA for holding these hearings and to give coal miners who are exposed to these hazards a chance to give their opinions on these problems. I'd like to say that we're not opposed to diesel equipment in the mines. As a matter of fact, I believe that one of the reasons that we're working today is because of diesel equipment. But, it has to be regulated. It's a tool, but we must protect the miners who use it, and in my opinion, there should be one standard that requires the diesel particulate filter that will reduce the particulate emissions by an average of 95 percent to protect the miners from those hazards. Thank you. MR. TOMB: Thank you. MR. DUNN: Also, I have a copy of the equipment. Do you want that? MR. TOMB: Any questions? Are you familiar enough with the use of this equipment that you could put that on this list for it? The use of it? MR. DUNN: Yes. MR. TOMB: In other words, actually, you have about 47 piece of equipment here that you said are all light duty. MR. DUNN: Right, we have six locomotives -- and we have locomotives and they're listed on there. It's listed on there. MR. TOMB: You have mantrips? MR. DUNN: Mantrips, right. All these are light duty, except for locomotives. MR. TOMB: Looks like you have more than six locomotives on there, though? MR. DUNN: No, here they are, locomotives. One, two, three, four, five and then most of these are all mantrips. But, see, some of these mantrips are not actual mantrips that's used for hauling people back and forth to the face. They're used by mechanics all through the mines, used by belt mechanics, they're used by foremen to travel back and forth in the mines. Of the mines -- MR. TOMB: It would help if you only speak from the podium so that we get it on the record, okay. MR. DUNN: The mine I work at is some slope to the furthest unit is 13 miles. So, we have 13 miles of conveyor and that's a lot of -- you know, that's a lot of area to cover. And, when you have problems throughout the mine, you have to be able to get there and get there quickly. Sometimes if your belts go down, you have a piece of equipment down, you're running back and forth for parts to fix that equipment. Coming and going out at different times. It's, that equipment is used all throughout the shift. Sometimes, you know, welders run it. But, that's what, the locomotives are considered heavy, but two-thirds of that equipment is run all during the shift. MR. TOMB: Okay, I just need what's on here. You don't need to supply anything else. Thank you very much. Our next speaker will be Mr. Becker. Was that right, sir? MR. BECKER: Yes, sir. My name is Clyde Becker, B-E-C-K-E-R. I'm Local President at Peabody Marissa Mine, United Mine Workers Local 2412. I'm from the same mine that Mr. Hicks is from. I will not repeat a lot of the things that he did, although I agreed with all of the statements that he has mentioned. But, one of the issues that, and I will answer one of the questions that the panel asked Mr. Hicks, and that was, for the people that have respiratory problems, how do they go about being compensated or how do they fill out a form? Respiratory problems and we have, in the last two months, two gentlemen that have missed work due to respiratory problems. Very difficult and it's not like a piece of rock falling on you and hitting you, something happens immediately, and that is an accident and causes you to miss work. Respiratory problems in the coal mines from black lung or from diesel emissions come over a period of time. It's something that doesn't occur in a moment. And, those are very difficult in management and insurance companies fight those with everything they possibly can. It's very difficult for the individual to prove those things have occurred, because there's not one single occurrence that caused that problem for you to have. It comes over a period of time, different symptoms, many symptoms from nose bleeds, coughing, irritations in the eyes, throat and breathing problems. Those are very difficult to tie together all those symptoms to tie together, to say that they came from that one sort of issue. MR. BECKER: -- occurrence that caused that problem for you to have that comes over a period of time. Different symptoms, many symptoms from nose bleeds, coughing, irritations in the eyes, throat and breathing problems. Those are very difficult to tie together. All those symptoms to tie together to say that they came from that one certain issue. And that is diesel emission. But the single thing that is very alarming us that the people that has these symptoms are people that are actually operating that equipment maintaining are working in that area where diesel equipment is being operated. Our mechanics and our operators of our diesel equipment at the mines are the ones, and seems to be the only ones that has these respiratory problems, the eye problems, migraine headaches and things of that nature. So, what we feel is very important is some type of filtering system on all equipment used in underground coal mines. Do not separate and think that heavy equipment emits more of those particulates than light equipment. In Marisa Mine of all the -- of the 55 pieces of equipment, I can assure you that the light duty equipment is maintained and ran and used 95 to 96 percent of the entire shift. And that those are the equipment that is actually producing all the haze, the smell, the odor, the problems that we have at Marisa Mine. We still have one other gentleman from the mine that will address some of the other issues, but those are the problems that as far as health problems that we see dealing with diesel equipment. With that, I will close and answer any questions. MR. TOMB: Thank you, Mr. Becker. Any questions? Okay. Thank you very much. MR. BECKER: Thank you. MR. TOMB: Our next speaker will be Mr. Williams. MR. WILLIAMS: I'm David Williams, W-I-L-L-I-A-M-S. I'm from Local 5179 in -- Mine over in Southern Indiana. It's a surface mine. I just want to come to ask you, don't take surface mining lightly. We've had diesel equipment for years. And the problems in coming out that's being proven that the diesel is causing lung problems. We would ask you to look at our surface mining more closely to see if we've had -- it would have these problems. And that's all. MR. TOMB: Okay. Anyone, have any questions? MR. HANEY: What do you mean by service mining? MR. WILLIAMS: It's strip mining. MR. HANEY: Surface mining? MR. WILLIAMS: Surface mining, yes. MR. HANEY: I though you said service. Surface, okay. MR. SASEEN: How many pieces of diesel do you have? MR. WILLIAMS: At our mine we probably got close to 50 or 60 tractor, bulldozers, fans, all these trucks and different things. MR. TOMB: Let me just ask a question about that. What areas do you feel are the problems of surface mining? MR. WILLIAMS: Diesel mechanics in their garage areas that haul these trucks. While you're sitting there by the loader getting loaded, your fumes are all around you. It comes in the cab. MR. TOMB: Are the cabs usually conditioned? MR. WILLIAMS: Most of them are, but most of -- you know, they'll get leaks around the doors. And they'll come in, you know -- the fumes will come in somehow. Okay. Any other questions? Okay. Thank you very much. MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you. MR. TOMB: Our next presenter will be Mr. Kunkel. MR. KUNKEL: My name is Don Kunkel, K-U-N-K-E-L. I'm with the United Mineworkers, Local 15. I'm chairman of the safety committee. I'm from -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: What mine, sir? MR. KUNKEL: -- to begin with, we've got approximately 25 pieces of diesel equipment. Two of them are permissible and two of them are lube trucks, which is heavy duty. And these lube trucks do have motor part welders on them, which works off of their engine. And we have four other personnel carriers that also have the welders that are powered by the diesel engine. One diesel generator for moving equipment in and out of the mine. And these -- whenever you run these welders and stuff, you know, you've got to have the motor wound up, and it does put out lots of emissions. And if we're using the diesel generator moving equipment in and out, you can get so far in the mine, approximately two miles or so, you have to -- for your neutral air. And -- that you're using for the diesel generator to get enough air across it to -- where you can stand it. In the last approximately two years, we've had approximately 12 citations, and I can get you copies of those if you request them, concerning ventilation. And I would say half of those are in the neutral area, isolation curtain and so forth. Getting torn down and being left like that. And also, people are real bad about coming in on the light duty equipment and personal carriers and stuff like that and they just leave them run. They think they're only going to be there for one or two minutes, but that usually turns into 10 or 15 minutes. They get side-tracked. That equipment's left there running. And if your isolation curtain's got a hole in it, then everything drafting into your work area. And as the other gentlemen have stated, most anyone you can talk to, your light duty equipment gets the least of the maintenance that it really should have. And we feel that all the light duty, especially the lube trucks, need to be 95 percent particulate removable filters on there. Anyone, have any questions? MR. SASEEN: The generator, do you know approximately what size horsepower that generator is? MR. KUNKEL: I can get you the information if you need it. MR. SASEEN: If you would, please. MR. KUNKEL: It's just brand new. We've only had it -- it's only been in service about approximately three months, but they've used it several times. MR. SASEEN: Okay. MR. KUNKEL: But I'll get you the information. MR. SASEEN: Thank you. MR. TOMB: Any other questions? Okay, thank you very much. Mr. Oldham will be our next presenter. MR. OLDHAM: My name is Edgar Oldham, Jr. O-L-D-H-A-M. I'm a representative for the United Mineworkers of America. And Mr. Chairman, and distinguished panel members, I appreciate the opportunity to come here and speak before you today. You know, I was sitting there thinking while we was sitting in this room, you know, the first thing that I'd kind of like to ask the Committee is if someone walked up to you and said, "I want you to enter this room," and there were signs on it that said it was contaminated with known chemicals such as benzine, dioxin, formaldehyde, arsenic, mercury compounds, inorganic lead and styrene, and they had little ventilation fans that you know, you would hopefully -- would pull the air out of the room and supposed to ventilate it. You know, or you have opportunity to put on a filter that you knew would prevent you from getting any of those contaminants in your body, you know, which one would you do? You know, would you walk in there, not knowing how much you were going to be exposed to once the door was closed behind you? You know, this is exactly what you're asking the coal miners all across this country to do, if every piece of diesel equipment that goes underground isn't filtered, and if we don't provide adequate ventilation to operate this equipment in. You know, I know the coal operators are telling you they can provide adequate ventilation to dilute and render harmless the chemicals produced by diesel equipment. But the fact is, they aren't properly ventilating mines today. And as you already have received some copies of ventilations, of violations that prove it's -- you know, ventilation in itself cannot be relied upon to work. We continue to find instances where problems occur with diesel emissions, where the operators try to manipulate the system in attempt to prevent a person from getting an adequate sample off the diesel exhaust. And also, you know, I was involved with this. And it was at the one mine where I was called upon that was having a problem with emissions continually going out of compliance on the diesel mantrip. And like you said, the company couldn't figure out the problem. So, their answer was to install an exhaust pipe across the back of the mantrip and to drill holes all across the pipe and then install the exhaust pipe into the larger pipe where you couldn't find the flow exhaust to obtain an adequate sample. And you know, we raised the issue about that, that it wasn't something that come from the manufacturer. That the company installed it, and it wasn't proper. They ended up removing that pipe, but then they had the manufacturer come back and install pipe on future pieces of equipment that they purchased that's got holes in it. So, you know, it come from the manufacturer now installed with what they call a diffuser. And it's nothing more than an attempt to prevent you from getting a good sample of the exhaust. Another instance, like you said, they drilled holes in the exhaust pipe underneath the diesel mantrip to relieve some of the pressure coming out of the tail of the exhaust. And this was intended to dilute underneath the mantrip, so you couldn't get a bad example. And we had to get the State and Federal involved with that, and they made them install a new exhaust pipe. But you know, that was just something that we couldn't fix the problem, so let's just find another answer. And like you said, another thing they're doing is installing a deflector at the end of the exhaust pipe in order to prevent you from testing emissions in the flow of the exhaust. And now, it seems like, you know, this issue was also raised, and now deflectors are coming out on the ends of exhaust pipes on new pieces of diesel equipment from the manufacturer. So, you know, it's something from the manufacturer now that's just a way and an attempt to keep you from getting an emissions test. You know, with manipulations like this going on, it's no different then it is with the duct sampling program, because someone is always trying to get around the system by not doing what's right, and miners suffer from it. There are filters available, and we suggest that the very least, installing a filter capable of removing at least 80 percent of diesel particulate matter on every new piece of diesel equipment used underground immediately, upon the publication date of the Final Rule. And within one year after the publication date of the Final Rule, each diesel engine used underground should be equipped with a filtration system capable of an 80 percent reduction in diesel particulate matter. And within two years after the publication date of the Final Rule, each new diesel engine that is taken underground should be equipped with a filtration system capable of on an average of 95 percent or greater of diesel particulate matters. Another issue that I'm having a hard time trying to understand is how the Agency came up with the heavy and light duty classifications of diesel-fired engines. As an individual who has done mechanic work all of their life, it would appear to me that it would have been simpler to categorize the equipment by horsepower ratings, combined with its intended use, and not just its intended use. I don't understand how you can have a diesel engine rated at 100 plus horsepower and one rated at 20 horsepower, and the 20 horsepower engine would be considered heavy duty, and the 100 plus horsepower engine would be considered light duty. Surely, the Agency doesn't believe the 100 plus horsepower engine emits less emissions than the 20 horsepower engine does. Even though it is my belief that everything should be filtered, if the Final Rule doesn't provide this, then the Agency needs to look at the heavy and light duty category because again, your method won't provide the needed protections that miners deserve. Another item I'm having a hard time understanding, is the Proposed Rule 751908. In the definition of heavy duty equipment, it states that: "Machines used to transport portable diesel fuel transportation units or portable lube units would be classified as heavy duty. If, for example, a vehicle such as the diesel Hummer" -- and we know we've got some of them in underground mines down in Alabama and various places, was supposed to be just used to transport people. And under the proposed rule, it will be considered light duty. But if a company decided to use it one time to transport a portable lube unit to a section, would it change its classification, or what would happen? You know, I don't know. In my opinion, the Agency has left too many gray areas when it comes to classifying equipment, which is another reason why all diesel equipment should be filtered and in the timeframe as outlined in the UMWA comments. Another thing that comes to my mind when you talk about the outer areas, was that at the Ohio 11 Mine. -- at the face. A lot of times they have problems keeping -- on the duct lines. And it's common with the roadways. So, what do they do? They hang a curtain up to block the air to force it over to the belt land where they can get their 50 feet a minute, which would be in compliance. But what's that doing to the diesel equipment? You know, I believe you're providing and boxing in and having dead areas on your roadway by doing that. It can't be providing good and adequate ventilation up the travelway. So, you know, I think that's a problem and it's one that needs to be looked at and addressed. You know, as the brother from the surface also talked about, I would like to mention the surface miners. You know, if the Agency develops a sampling procedure for diesel particulate matter, then it should apply to all miners, both surface and underground. The surface miners shouldn't be left behind like they have been in the dust sampling. Until recently as the Agency began to focus on the dust problems at surface mines -- and this shouldn't happen -- what's happening for diesel particulate matter or any other diesel legislation that could apply to surface mines. And like you said, MSHA may want to visit some of the diesel shops and especially during the winter months, to see for themselves just what miners in the shops are being exposed to. Another issue that I'd like to just talk about is including the specifications of the diesel engines and listing the diesel equipment in the mine ventilation plans, because I'm hearing you know, that some people are not wanting to list those specifications in the mine ventilation plan or on the equipment list and stuff. So, you know, this should be done so the miners and their -- miners representatives will have a place that they can go to to find out, you know, what these specifications are, what the air readings are or the requirements for the ventilations. And just have somewhere where they can go to find this information out, and to know, you know, just how many pieces of equipment are being utilized at the mines, because that's the only way they'd know. You know, if you go to a job and you work there every day and you go to one section, you don't really know a lot of times how many pieces of equipment at's your mine. So, you know, they need to know, you know, what's being used at the mine. And also, I have copies, which two of the people couldn't make it today, but these are two mines. They're relatively small mines, but in about a two-year period, a total of 87 violations on ventilation at these two operations. And you know, I'd like to submit these to the Committee. MR. TOMB: Are these ventilation violations? MR. OLDHAM: Ventilation only. MR. TOMB: Only. MR. OLDHAM: So, those are totally ventilation violations at operations at the Sebree No. 1 Mine and the Martwick Mine in Kentucky. And you know, in closing, I'd just like to say that I don't read anywhere in the Act where Congress declared a diesel engine of this most precious resource, but it did, in fact, declare our miners. Therefore, if the technology is available to protect miners from the pollutants emitted from diesel exhaust, then I truly feel the Agency is charged with providing that protection. The technology is here. It's available, and it should be utilized because it's the right thing to do, and the miners across this country deserve it. Thank you. MR. TOMB: Thank you. MR. OLDHAM: Now, I'll take any questions that you have. MR. TOMB: Questions? Mr. Ford? MR. FORD: Yes. Concerning the list of diesel- powered equipment, what about if there was a standard that said that that list with all pertinent information should be kept at the mine or a central location, but not in the mine ventilation plans? Do you think there'd be a problem with that kind of a standard? MR. OLDHAM: It may not be as long as it was made available to the represented miners. MR. FORD: Right, with a condition saying that it would be made available to a miner's rep or MSHA personnel. MR. OLDHAM: Yes. But my only problem is -- I mean, in understanding what the big deal, they're providing it in the ventilation plans today. So, you know, why not continue the practice of what they're doing? MR. FORD: Okay, thank you. MR. TOMB: Any other questions? Okay, thank you very much. What I'd like to do is take a -- and I'd ask you for your cooperation in this because we're going to have -- I don't know if you're going to eat here or not, but it's going to be a tough day in the restaurant today. And I think they're serving from 11:30 -- 11:00 to 12:30. But what I'd like to do is take a 10-minute break, get a stretch, come back here at 11:00 and then go for another 50 minutes. And then we'll go to lunch, and we'll come back here at 1:00 and go for the rest of the afternoon. Is that okay? Does that make sense to everybody? Let's take a 10-minute break. (Whereupon, a short break was taken.) MR. TOMB: If we can get back to the presentations. Our next presenter will be a Mr. Klausing. MR. KLAUSING: My name is Tom Klausing. K-L-A-U-S-I-N-G, Sr. I work for Old Ben Ziegler Mine No. 11 at Corville, Illinois. We have approximately 36 pieces of diesel equipment underground, two service centers, which are considered heavy duty, eight pick-ups, 13 mantrips, two rovers, six flatbed trucks, full scoops and one diesel rockduster. Been in mines approximately since 1989, 1990 till this day. I just entered in as record, 26 ventilation citations and 16 on dust control. And basically entered them to give you some kind of an idea that management can't even control or monitor the ventilation or dust, let alone the diesel problem that we've been having. As far as testing on the equipment, management does the testing. Whether it's done properly or not, we're nine chances out of ten, we're not around there unless MSHA inspectors is around there at the same time that management's doing the testing or the MSHA's inspectors testing. Maintenance on equipment is as needed, basically, changing the filters. If they quit running, they start blowing out black smoke and they only end up changing the filter. Ziegler Old Ben Coal Company is notorious for the lack of maintenance on anything. As far as my understanding, almost every coal mine's that way. The health problems that we've been having at the mine as far as the people complaining about the diesel smoke is where you're in a confined area. The pod duster is a prime example. You're hose dusting, the diesel motor is blowing right back onto the operator, and the pod -- the guy that's running the hose duster, of course, is in on the belt line somewhere. But we have talked to management, tried to get the -- reroute the exhaust on the diesel pod duster. So far, we've not succeeded on that yet. I just kind of bring this up. You can take it however you want to. I know many of you probably either drove here in a truck, car or whatever, and you've seen semis on the road. And you probably followed some of them, and you've seen the black soot that comes out of these semi- trucks. Well, it's similar underground. But you can't really see that black soot underground because of the -- either the lighting or whatever, you know. But if you would pull up behind one of them diesel scoops or mantrip or whatever, you'll see a blue haze behind that, usually, with the headlights or something. And that's what we've got to put up with. And that's what we're here today to ask you to do all you can do for us. So, that's all I've got. Any questions? MR. TOMB: Jon? MR. KOGUT: I don't know if I heard you correctly, but did you say that the maintenance procedure was to change filters whenever the black soot became visible? MR. KLAUSING: Maintenance on most of the equipment underground on diesel equipment, as a matter of fact any equipment, is as needed, basically. MR. KOGUT: But do you use filters on some of your equipment? MR. KLAUSING: I'm talking about air filters. MR. KOGUT: Oh, you're talking about air filters? MR. KLAUSING: Yeah. We don't have -- all these are non-permissible equipment. That repeats what I told you about. MR. TOMB: Are any of those pieces of equipment classified as heavy duty? MR. KLAUSING: Yeah, the two service centers that I just told you about. MR. TOMB: Okay. Only the two? MR. KLAUSING: Two service centers. They're in on the units. They're not permissible. They have to -- MR. TOMB: Yes. But they're classified as heavy duty? MR. KLAUSING: Yes. MR. TOMB: Any other questions? Okay, thank you very much. MR. KLAUSING: Thank you. MR. TOMB: Our next presenter will be Mr. Todd. MR. TODD: My name's Larry Todd, T-O-D-D, United Mineworkers, Local 2412. I work at the Peabody Marisa Mine. A few of my colleagues already spoke to you, so I won't give you the facts and figures. Put yourself in the position as everybody's been behind the buses in the big city and everything else. You roll your windows up. It doesn't do much good. And that's what we work with eight hours, ten hours, particularly, at our mines. We're on 10-hour shifts. And separate your in-by and out-by. Out-by is past the last couple of -- So, we've got equipment that works in the sections, what you deem as a light duty -- four or five hours. Two or three people run them, so you've got equipment that works in the section itself. And to make another little story, and I've told other people. Since the '93 strike when we tried to get more diesel equipment, we don't have them little mice running around anymore, whether they got out or it's coincidence or what, unless the lab rats told them that they tested. But I just wanted to make a couple of comments, and I appreciate your time. MR. TOMB: Okay, thank you very much. Any questions? Okay, thank you very much, Mr. Todd. Our next presenter will be Mr. Tollston. Okay, Mr. Tollston is not here. Then, we'll go with Mr. Deppe. MR. DEPPE: My name is Dave Deppe, D-E-P-P-E, UMWA. I work at -- well, I worked at 41392 --. Presently laid off. I've been a mechanic for 23 years at the mines. It's a surface mine, and I'd like to address the problems we have at a surface mine. In the winter time when you close the doors, if you have anything in the shop running, it fills the shop full of smoke. You can't hardly even see. And it makes your eyes water, your throat sore. And I don't see how the underground people can stand anything that's not filtered, because I can go outside and get a breath of fresh air if I need to. We have ventilation fans, but nobody wants to turn them on because it sucks all the heat out of the garage. And as far as what I've heard on the testing procedure in the automotive sector, when they test for hydrocarbons and stuff, they run a sniffer up the tailpipe to measure what exhaust gases are. I don't know how you'd get an accurate test by just holding such a thing behind the exhaust. And I want to thank you for your time. MR. TOMB: Okay, thank you very much. Any questions? MR. SASEEN: Yes. How many, in a typical time in the shop, how many pieces of diesel would be in your shop? MR. DEPPE: At one time? MR. SASEEN: Yes. MR. DEPPE: Oh, you might have -- when we were in production, there may be 17 pieces of equipment at one time, not all running, but at least they're there. MR. SASEEN: Okay. MR. DEPPE: It doesn't take very long for say, 150-ton hauling truck to fill the shop full a smoke with the door shut. MR. SASEEN: I was going to say these are mostly large haul trucks or loaders that are being serviced? MR. DEPPE: Yes. MR. KOGUT: Okay. MR. TOMB: You had a question? MR. KOGUT: How much of the time do you estimate that the equipment is actually running in the shop? MR. DEPPE: Most of it's for diagnosis time or testing time on something that's -- it wouldn't be very long. But I've seen anywhere from 15 to 30 minutes of time running. But it probably takes about an average of five minutes to fill the shop full of smoke. MR. TOMB: You don't make any provisions for exhausting the exhaust? MR. DEPPE: No. They installed three exhaust fans. They're in the roof of the building. But like I said, in the winter time, you suck every bit of the heat out of the garage if you run that. MR. TOMB: There's no tail pipe exhaust? MR. DEPPE: No, there's nothing, nothing at all. MR. TOMB: Okay, thank you very much, Mr. Deppe. Our next presenter will be Mr. Kellerman. MR. KELLERMAN: I feel my comments have already been addressed. MR. TOMB: Okay. Mr. Miller? MR. MILLER: Good morning. My name is Tim Miller, M-I-L-L-E-R. I'm the local president of Local 5138, Lone Star Energy. You'll notice today here as you have a lot of mine workers here, these mine workers are here because they don't have the fear of speaking out because they have union protection. I work at a mine that was non-union for 50 years. We've been union for one year. So, this is our first go-around to have the ability to speak out. And I'm here today to speak out on behalf of all coal miners, because if you didn't have the fear of the non- union miner from losing his job, this room couldn't hold everybody that could be here. So, just please remember that all underground mines have this diesel equipment. And we've had it since 1981 in our mine. We've been exposed to it for years and years and years. We didn't have the ability to speak out until now. But you will notice that your room will have plenty of foremen and company officials from those non-union mines. But again, you won't notice those non-union employees here because of fear of losing their jobs. I'd like to move on. I started in the coal mines in 1979. And when I first started in the mines, I started like I said, in the non-union mines. And safety was pretty lax, but I did notice a steady improvement as MSHA -- like the '69 Safety Health Act. We started following that and getting better, and things were improving. But then we had the diesel equipment, and it come into the mine. And the '69 Health -- Mine Safety Health Act, one thing it insured was that there would be no section that would be on the same -- with another section. I think we all understand that here on the panel is what I'm saying. You would have fresh intake air that would be delivered to each individual section and no -- would go across another section. Our mine is a long wall mine. We have three continuous miner units and a long wall. We have approximately 39 pieces of diesel equipment. A small portion, probably eight, nine, heavy duty, the rest, what you guys consider light duty equipment. Our mine is ventilated through the supply row. The intake air comes right directly down the supply row. Okay? This is where all the diesel equipment motivates out by the units. My point that I'm trying to make is that every piece of diesel equipment that operates on our supply row is all that diesel -- all that diesel fumes and smoke's taken directly to the men. Okay? Every bit of it. So, when I look at the '69 Health Act and think about the individual with fresh intake air, like it was when I started in the mines in '79, we had fresh intake air. It was uncontaminated air. It was fresh air. The intake was timbered all the way, but it was fresh air. But it's not anymore. In this day and age, with the plans that we have in our mine, you have contaminated air from the word go. And every man in that mine that works in that mine is breathing all this diesel. And whether it be close -- whether you're close or not, really doesn't matter. I, myself, spent about four hours behind a diesel yesterday, and I have a sore throat today, sore tonsils, runny nose and all the symptoms that everyone has. And there's no way to get away from them. You operate a piece of equipment, close quarters like, that's going to happen. You know, it's like Mr. Oldham said. You know, you just go figure. If you get behind a tailpipe, you know, it's going to kill you eventually, whether slow death or quick death. I'd also like to talk about some of the dilution factors and the height of coals and intake air. We work in a mine that's approximately seven to eight feet in height. And with all this height and with all the air we have, we have plenty of intake air, there's no doubt. But that doesn't dilute the exhaust. You know, that exhaust again, it carries on down the airways and goes to each and every man in the working section. And that's one thing that you heard all the mineworkers here today talk about, is -- you know, you've got light duty and what we call, so-called heavy duty. And I can't understand all of it is going right up our sinuses and down our lungs. So, what's the difference? I just can't see that. I just want to also touch on some personal experiences I've had myself. On our long wall, we have a three entry system. If any of you understand what I'm saying, we maintain three entries. And we basically make territory -- three miner units for the long wall. And when we're setting the long wall up -- and when I say setting it up, you know, when we're moving into a new block of coal, we have basically one travelway in and out that we can take equipment in and out except for near the long wall. I witnessed myself before this instance, 14 pieces of diesel equipment on one section. That's in one air course separated from the other units, 14 pieces. Only two or three may be heavy duty, and the rest again, what's so- called light duty. But the guys come to me -- I didn't announce my position. I'm the local president of 5138. They come to me and tell me of the situations of the burning nose and the burning eyes and problems. We've had the Department of Mines and Minerals come in before and maybe shut everything down but one scoop. But we all know, just like you said, Mr. Chairman, you were at a mine that the bus took you to a section, and it was parked all day. I'm sure it was parked all day while you were there. But when you're not there, it's no different when the MSHA inspectors are not there. We know what goes on. It's business as usual. And these guys come to me to complain about the sensitive areas of breathing this dust. They constantly have lung irritations, but it seems like that you know, we continue to ignore the situation. And that's what we're here today for is to make sure that we understand that we can't -- as coal miners see the difference in heavy duty or light duty, it all emits the noxious gases. We all know that. I think we're all under the understanding of that. We know the CO, the NO, the NO2. We know what it'll do to you. So, I can't understand why we're even here, like the other gentleman in front of me said. We have basically -- we have diesel equipment in every area of our mines, not just in small areas or undefined areas. Like some of the guys before us have talked about their diesel equipment is in isolated areas where they have neutrals, we don't have them. There's a big problem with that. We have fresh flow intake, and we maintain our well. I can't complain. Our people do a good job at ventilation. We have to. We have a long wall. We have a lot of ventilation. But we still do have those areas where equipment is in areas that are lowly ventilated, but we do have a lot of people there that have been sick with diesel equipment. And as far as what you tell us here today about being able to fill certain forms, that's never been done that I know of at our company. But our company employs about somewhere in the neighborhood of roughly -- our mine -- the Baker Mine is about 350 people. And I've always felt from day one that these 350 people, including myself, were basically guinea pigs. No one knows what this diesel is going to do to us. But some day, I guess my grandchildren will. That's all I have. Thank you. MR. TOMB: Thank you. Any questions? I just have one. Is it possible for you to provide us with a list of the equipment and the time that it operates? This is just data we'd like to have from the mines using diesel equipment. MR. MILLER: What I'd like to request -- I have no problem with that. We have company officials here from my mines, and they're very familiar with that. And when they speak, I'd like for you to ask, you know, where we can compare what they say the application of the equipment is and the time it's used in a day. MR. TOMB: Well, I don't quite understand. MR. MILLER: Okay. We have company officials here. MR. TOMB: Yes, uh-huh. MR. MILLER: Okay. I don't know if they're going to speak or not. MR. TOMB: Oh, okay. MR. MILLER: But if they speak, they're here, they can probably offer you that information. MR. TOMB: Oh, okay. Very good. Thank you very much. MR. MILLER: Thank you. MR. TOMB: I'm not sure of this next name, Mr. Tuttle? MR. TREVIAL: I have no comment. MR. TOMB: Did I get the name right? MR. TREVIAL: Trevial. Trevial. MR. TOMB: Trevial. Okay, I'm sorry. Mr. Steve Bruk. MR. BRUK: My name is Steve Bruk, and I'm a local safety committeeman in Local 15 -- MR. TOMB: Would you spell that for the record? MR. BRUK: My last name? MR. TOMB: Yes. MR. BRUK: B-R-U-K. MR. TOMB: Thank you. MR. BRUK: And I just have one question is all I have. Is when these MSHA inspectors start to -- they're provided with a list of all the diesel equipment on a property. Okay? Mysteriously, when it comes time for them to make -- to inspect this diesel equipment, if a company knows that a particular piece of equipment is out of compliance, it disappears. So, my question is to you, why does MSHA allow this condition to exist? Why doesn't the inspector demand to see a particular piece of equipment? Because if he doesn't inspect it, it doesn't get fixed. And that's all I have. MR. TOMB: Okay. I'm not sure I can answer your question at this particular time. I'll ask that question now, and I'm sure it gets back to what an inspector procedure is from that district office. Okay? So, I'd just have to ask that question for you. I'm sorry I can't give you the answer right now to that question. MR. BRUK: Okay. Thank you. MR. TOMB: But I guess your issue is that there is a procedure when inspectors come in to inspect the equipment, but many times, in your opinion, what's polluting equipment -- the equipment that is polluting, okay, is not in operation at the time when needing an inspection, therefore, it doesn't get inspected. Okay. Thank you. Mr. Lumas? MR. LUMAS: My name is Mark Lumas, chairman of the safety committee, Wabash Mine, Local 1791. I do have a list and an average furnished to me by management on the run time on heavy and light duty equipment. On an average weekday on a shift, which is our day shift, we have approximately 36 hours of mantrip planned, which consists of Isuzu pick-up trucks and Wallace diesel mantrips, four-seaters, five-seaters, diesel, which all have the same engine. MR. TOMB: This would be light duty equipment? MR. LUMAS: These would be considered light duty. And there again, I cannot understand how you can differentiate the difference between a light duty and heavy duty. My opinion is they should be all classified as one, and that being heavy duty, because pick-up trucks are used to haul small parts, which can consist of motors off Meyers diesel pump, off of different various equipment. And these pick-ups -- and also may I state that we have -- we went to -- fault. And we have an entry that's on a 17 percent grade. And you have to run these vehicles in low gear in order to make it up this, which in my opinion, puts a full load on your engine. We also have CLAs or -- they're a versatile piece of equipment. They have a set of forks on those that you can use for maintenance, unload supplies, various things. They also come with a scoop bucket. Okay, now, according to MSHA, when you have the scoop bucket on it for cleaning belt lines for cleaning up -- those are considered heavy duty. When you put the forks on those, those are considered light duty. Now, I can take and put those forks on there and I can put that engine under a heavier load with the forks on it, than I can with the bucket on it. Also, that -- also pertains to -- we have -- supply tractors. The side scenario falls through there when they're pulling a diesel fuel tank with 500 gallons of diesel fuel, 500 gallons of hydraulic fuel, antifreeze, these are only fifth wheel, they're considered heavy duty. Now, I can take that same tractor, pull its supply car so the roofbolts, roofblades, timbers, crosscars, and that engine is put under the same load, that according to MSHA, heavy duty and light duty. We have Jeffrey diesel ramcars, which are considered heavy duty used on our continuous line sections for hauling coal. Now, the CLAs factor the amount of hours, they'll run on -- I'm talking one shift now. They possibly ran an average of five hours, okay? And so, we have a total of light duty time between the mantrips and the CLAs of approximately 34 percent. Ramcars we run approximately 52 hours. And this is with -- we ran four ram -- we had two continuous mining sections. So, we run eight ramcars. Let's see. At approximately six and a half operating hours. The Gattman tow tractors, we run approximately 14 hours. We have diesel Wagner scoops that are ran approximately nine and half hours. And then we have a diesel grader and a diesel roofbolter, which are run approximately five hours. So, we have a total of 80 and a half hours, which is 66 percent heavy duty time in one shift. And I have those broke down. Those are broke down in shifts -- for production shifts and also for idle shifts. I have a total for -- we work idle work on weekends, Saturdays and Sundays, plus our production time. I have a total hours run time for light duty equipment, I have 525 and a half hours or 36 percent. I have 922 and a half hours, total heavy duty time or 64 percent. We have -- but we have the same -- all of us here, we have all repeated -- we have the same problems. Maintenance is a problem. We do have -- some of our equipment does have exhaust filters, particularly exhaust filters. In my opinion, all diesel equipment needs some sort of filtration system, and whether it be considered heavy duty, light duty. They all emit the diesel particulate, which can be cancer-causing and a hazard to our health. So, my plea is that MSHA will consider all the facts presented here today and that we can all come to a compromise for the health and safety of our miners. And we represent all miners, non-union, as well as union. Thank you. MR. TOMB: Thank you, Mr. Lumas. Any questions? George? MR. SASEEN: Yeah. On those Jeffrey permissible units, do they have water scrubbers, or are they just the -- system? MR. LUMAS: Water. And we are testing a new DST dry scrubber. We have one ramcar that does have the new dry scrubber, and we have one ramcar that's out for rebuild that will come back with the dry scrubber. MR. SASEEN: Okay. On the one you're using, how much filter life are you getting on the machine? MR. LUMAS: I think approximately 20 hours. MR. SASEEN: Okay. And -- MR. LUMAS: Now -- excuse me. Now, with some of our exhaust filters, we have had some problems. We've had some --. In the last two months, there have been I believe about four instances where we've had the exhaust filter catch on fire due to lack of maintenance. MR. SASEEN: Was that on a DST? MR. LUMAS: No, that's on water scrubber. MR. SASEEN: Oh, so you did have some exhaust filters on some water scrubbers? MR. LUMAS: Yes, we do. MR. SASEEN: And how many units? MR. LUMAS: We have approximately eight ramcars, with one -- MR. SASEEN: With filters. I'm sorry. MR. LUMAS: All eight of them have the -- MR. SASEEN: Filters. MR. LUMAS: -- exhaust filters. MR. SASEEN: And they're all water scrubbers? MR. LUMAS: Except for the one. MR. SASEEN: Except for the one. MR. LUMAS: It still has an exhaust filter. MR. SASEEN: Okay. That's the dry system? MR. LUMAS: Right. MR. SASEEN: Okay. You said about 20 hours. Is that for the wet systems that you're getting an average? MR. LUMAS: Yes. MR. SASEEN: Okay. MR. LUMAS: They are getting some longer life out of the filter on the dry scrubber system. Now, approximately what the difference is right off-hand, I can't tell you that. MR. SASEEN: And they have the CAT engines, do you know, or is it MWM? MR. LUMAS: I honestly don't know. MR. SASEEN: Like 4114s? MR. LUMAS: 4110s. MR. SASEEN: 4110s. I have the MW on there. How long does it take to change the filters? Do you have an idea? MR. LUMAS: I'm going to say 10 minutes, you know, I mean, if you have to go get your filter. If you have the filter readily available. MR. SASEEN: Do you know what the cost for those filters are? MR. LUMAS: No, I do not. MR. SASEEN: Okay, thank you. MR. TOMB: Any other questions? MR. FORD: Yes. Sir, I've got one quick question. Can you tell us what type -- if there was any training that mechanics in the mine received concerning these filters? MR. LUMAS: In the last year, due to MSHA regulations, all of our mechanics have been trained in maintenance of car diesel equipment. MR. FORD: Okay. What about specifically the filters, especially the dry system? MR. LUMAS: Yes. They were -- because that is a new system and they were trained in the maintenance of the dry scrubber system. MR. FORD: Okay. Do you know like how that took place? Was it the people in the mine themselves, or did like a manufacturer come in and give that training? MR. LUMAS: Well, the company I work for, they were instrumental in developing the dry scrubber system. And they were trained internally. MR. FORD: Okay, thank you. MR. TOMB: I have one question for clarification. Maybe I heard you wrong before. I thought when you made your presentation, you said that you had similar type problems what other people had, including maintenance problems -- MR. LUMAS: Correct -- MR. TOMB: -- in your mine. Now -- and you just said that everybody has been trained in maintenance and everything. So, can you elaborate maybe a little bit on the other problems you're talking about? MR. LUMAS: Well, our mine is -- you know, we're unlike any other -- I mean, we're like -- just like the rest of the mines. A year and a half ago, we had a massive layoff and massive cutbacks. But as everyone that's worked in a coal mine, they don't like to repair things until absolutely that piece of equipment will just no longer motivate. And production is number one on the list. Cost is another thing. If you can run a piece of equipment for any length of time, then we're saving without doing any maintenance to it. MR. TOMB: Do you have a regular maintenance program? MR. LUMAS: Well, they will tell you that they have a regular maintenance program, let me put it that way. Now, as far as following their maintenance program, they will also tell you that they have a wash program to clean equipment. Yes, they do have these plans. Now, ask me if they use those plans -- utilize those plans. In my opinion, no. MR. TOMB: Okay. So, what you're saying then is the people have been trained, though. You have trained people and so forth. MR. LUMAS: Yes. MR. TOMB: When the maintenance is done and so forth is another story I think is what you're saying. MR. LUMAS: Correct. MR. TOMB: Okay. Any other questions? Thank you. Mr. Price will be our next presenter. MR. PRICE: My name is Gil Price, and I'm from Local 2412. And Price is P-R-I-C-E. Everybody's touching on a lot of the same stuff. And it's because of the same problems at all the mines. One of the things that they mention -- I'm not going to reiterate on everything they mention. I'm going to try to bring some new stuff here. For one thing, a mantrip -- your mantrips are always operated in the neutral. They're not considered heavy equipment, but they put out just as much diesel emissions as everything else does. They're under a load. They're usually going fast to get in a unit and fast to get out. And the one thing nobody mentions, and it's always bothered me, is that when you've got a piece of diesel equipment that comes in the mine and you say, "We're going to regulate that this machine's going to be in compliance with the Federal law," you have a base number for your CO emissions on the machine. And that number is taken at the mine when it gets underground. And that's what you have to keep that machine in compliance with. Who says that number is in compliance? Nobody does. Nobody regulates that. If you check that machine and that machine's out of compliance when it gets there, it remains out of compliance the entire time it's at the mine. You don't regulate the numbers on that. You tell us to take a base number there and that's going to be your compliance number. So, if it's out of compliance when we get it, it's always out of compliance. So, we're breathing that stuff with no regulation on it. And that's the CO of the exhaust that's killing people. Then, you've got -- the Federal law says within the neutrals, you have to have a movement of air. These machines are operating always in the neutral. And if you've got diesel scoops or service centers and that, and they break down in the unit or just out by the units, then they're repaired right there. Now, they're in the neutral. So, all you have is a movement of air, which is not enough air to dispense the diesel emissions or the exhaust and whoever the operator are, the repairman's working on them is right there in that neutral with that, with just a movement of air. So, they're breathing that fumes the entire time. If it takes 15 minutes to fix it or if it's got a fuel problem, you got to bleed the lines and that, and it takes you three hours to fix it, you're breathing those fumes in neutral with no air. The carcinogens in there -- you know, the study by the Cancer Institute -- they did one in '88 -- last part of '88, first part of '89. And they concluded that the fumes contained particulates that were carcinogenic to human beings. And in March, I think of this year, in Evansville, Indiana, MSHA gave a two-day seminar up there for vendors and anybody wanting to attend on diesel emissions. And they gave us a book in there that had a chart in it. You were there. I saw you there. Remember the chart? The chart, whenever it was written or drawn up, the underground coal miner was basically off the chart when the chart was made. Now, most of the time when you make a chart, you've got room for improvement and room to get worse. Well, we left a lot of room for improvement there, but we didn't leave the underground coal miner any room to get any worse then he was at that time. We were almost off the chart. So, we were breathing basically as much as you thought we could breathe in. And I haven't seen any change in that. But what I did see was a 15-year study that was conclusive with the hazards of particulate matter. And the only relief I have from that is that the Board still has that under review. But people touched on -- you know, you have diesel particular matter, it's been determined can cause upper respiratory infections and migraine headaches, cancer, lung disease and heart disease. Now, you have an opportunity and you're in a position to help these people not to breath this stuff, and why it took this long for a review -- I understand how red tape works, and I'm very understanding of how the Government works. But I don't understand why it takes 15 years to help people quit breathing stuff that's killing them. And I, for one, I don't -- I don't really know what phosphorous smells like. I know if I saw my kid playing with it, I'd slap him. Or lead or zinc or arsenic or creosol. Creosol stinks, I know that. But all these carcinogens are in these diesel emissions, and we're breathing them every day. And we've got guys in our mines that's got upper respiratory infections, guys that got coughs. I'm being treated right now for migraine headaches because I work on these things all the time. And the triglycerides in my system are supposed to be around 200. Right now, they're